While you say “actually doing it” as opposed to “the game telling you that you did it,” they’re pretty much the same - except in the case of “actually doing it,” you have to click a few extra links. In Echo Bazaar, you click “investigate the reporter” and then some text comes up to tell you that you followed the guy and overhead a suspicious conversation. It feels kind of hollow, because it’s pre-baked stuff you’ve simply unlocked by pressing the right button, but if you really care about the story then it’s usually ok. I think most people will agree that this isn’t a very good mechanic, but I also think that most people will find something to like in Echo Bazaar, so it succeed fairly often.
When you’re “actually doing something,” it seems like it would be more like this: you click “follow the reporter!” and then “hide around the corner!” and then “eavesdrop on the conversation”? You’d get more or less the same text, but broken up into three parts. It would make the game more interactive, in theory - there would have to be other options along the way, so you have better control of what happens. In this case, success or failure is on your choices as the player, not random chance. But I don’t think it would be inherently better than what Echo Bazaar does. As a player, it’s hardly more interesting and you just have to press extra buttons to get what you need. As the creator, it radically increases the amount of “content” you need to make for all the different options. So it’s a question of execution.
The distinction has merit, though, because the same thing comes up in a lot of dialogue based games - in Mass Effect, or LA Noire, you’re given small snippets or themes of dialogue to choose from. Then the writers put the rest of the words in your character’s mouth. So you’re talking to a suspect in LA Noire, and you pick “doubt” because you have a little feeling of doubt - and suddenly your character is outright accusing the suspect, potentially losing their trust or making them angry. And that sucks, because you, as the player, didn’t mean for your character to do that. The problem here is that your interactive role as the player isn’t perfect - you just give vague directions to the character and the writers fill in the rest.
I haven’t actually played LA Noire myself, but I’ve been reading about it and I’ve listened to a number of podcasts about it. From my understanding, a lot of the “gameplay” is pretty terrible - the driving sucks, the shooting sucks, the interrogation is a bit iffy, and so on. But solving mysteries is really fun and really interesting. Enough to make up for every other fault the game has. Essentially, the game is carried entirely by its atmosphere and story, so even though the mechanics suck it’s completely worth playing.
(As a side note, a lot of people who are really into gaming as a medium have argued against LA Noire being a “good” game, and rightfully so. Its strong points are borrowed from other mediums, and it’s probably the current pinnacle of “interactive movie” games. But that just means we don’t need to make more games like LA Noire. I think it’s a great opportunity to learn about what people enjoy, and what they’re willing to pay for. A game that isn’t about action can actually be successful - that’s a strong message for publishers. And if every game told a story as well as LA Noire…)
So the point of all that is this: if you’re telling a great story, and your players are engaged despite the simple mechanics for delivering it, things will probably work out. Grinding in Echo Bazaar is completely boring for the player because it’s a simple mechanic and nothing beyond that. But being involved in some grand mystery at the Shuttered Palace, or talking to suspects (in the Rubbery Murders content you buy with Fate) is super cool, and unlocking things like Stormy Eyed feels rewarding despite the mechanics. It all works because you’re engaged, and that should be the ultimate goal of every mechanic in a game.
(My points about LA Noire comes from a number of podcasts (Destructoid’s Podtoid, The Escapist Podcast, Japanator’s Japanator AM, The Electric Hydra) but I don’t have the exact episode numbers, and also this article on GameFront)
except in the case of “actually doing it,” you have to click a few extra links.
I knew you’d say that! Even as I wrote it, I wondered. So what you’ve said is quite true, particularly the extra clicking.
Then what is the driving force behind my - and others’ - obsession with Popmundo? The game right now flat-out sucks. It’s hard for newbies to enter, gives them little reason to stay, and it’s incredibly convoluted. Sure, it gets rewarding eventually, but only after you accumulate some money for some interesting skills and start making shows. You seriously play the game, to eventually enjoy playing the game more in the future.
I believe the driving force behind me checking popmundo every now and then is the notion that I’m progressing. Popmundo doesn’t really “mean” anything, there’s not a whole lot to learn, and you don’t even actively play it. I think people just like to see a character mature. I could log in every 3 days and nothing would change for my character, and I’m VIP! Yet I still log in just to look around, or see just how close I am to 5 stars for a skill.
I’m really not worried about the “extra click” because I think it’s just how everything should pan out anyway - the fact I have extra clicks is because you can actually do things. In Echo Bazaar, good GOD would I love to go down the street and case some random shop… perhaps a clothing shop, and spend all this Time (equivalent of actions) and some Effort (bigger actions) to get a serious robbery performed. But no, you don’t. You find the jewelery store, you get a paragraph for each thing you can do - I think it was search for exits and ask people about the store? - and then hey, you’ve hit Casing 5, here’s a reward paragraph. Once that paragraph is read, its only narrative purpose stands to remind the player of what they once did. Not even what they’re doing. After that, the player understands they must get X amount of X to buy some silly shop item. A goal here with game 3 is not to have just this awesome story that everyone can read… but beyond that, to allow the player to create their own story. That is one thing EBZ does not, and seemingly cannot have. Sure you have your small options here and there: rat out the university head or send an innocent to the gallows? And for what EBZ is, that’s perfect. Nothing wrong with it. I just want to do something different. I want players to feel like they are something. They are an inventor and they can do a whole lot of “whatever they want”.
I would also like to note that I do have other motives behind creating the game “as a game engine”. It’s unlike me to hold in cool secret club house ideas, but I don’t want to make any promises. Especially since the fruits of this game engine would not be able to be picked until the seeds are completely sewn, and game 3 has a name for itself.
edit: forgot to mention, I doubt there will be failure on every choice like there is in echo bazaar. I want the player to invest more Time into something, rather than having a few hit-or-miss options.